19 replies to this topic

[JamesMac]

Yo!

My kicks always either lack depth/bass/fullness but have a good amount of attack/punch OR they will have of depth/bass/fullness but lack punch and definition. I can't seem to find a balance. Hope that makes sense.

Does anyone have any advice? Or material i might be able to read. At this stage i consider this one of my greatest weaknesses.

Also while i have your attention, how the sweet-jesus-tittie does a mere mortal such as myself achieve a sound like this:

[mp3=400,30,0,center][/mp3]

I can't really tell what's happening there. Is it just some sub-bass sidechained to the kick or something?

It's TASTY.

[ehsan]

LOL I read "Kiss! My greatest weakness" in my RSS and thought it was an RB thread ;D

[TankF]

Can't listen to the link right now...
It's just a matter of practicing making room for your kick and using a quality sample. Equalize all the low end out of your percs and bline and you will find it cuts through a whole lot more. Choosing the correct sample is really important too ie. a subbier kik for a bass line with lots going on in the low mids/ a clickier higher kick for a subby bassline.

[JamesMac]

^i tend to layer/eq/compress multiple kicks (usually 2 or 3) to achieve something new. Bad technique?

Choosing the right samples is definatly a weaker point. I don't know what is going to sit well in my tracks. Usually i start with my kick and build the track from there. By the time i'm half way through it's quiete often the kick that seems most out of place.

[Spectrum]

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I can't really tell what's happening there. Is it just some sub-bass sidechained to the kick or something?

It's TASTY.

Yeah, I'd say there's something like that going on. I think the clue is in the very last kick of the clip which appears solo sans the boing!-like bass note.

Short of ideas after that, though I'm sure the techno brigade on here can offer some pointers.

[Spectrum]

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LOL I read "Kiss! My greatest weakness" in my RSS and thought it was an RB thread ;D

Awwww poor RB! He cops all your jibes! ;D

[TankF]

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^i tend to layer/eq/compress multiple kicks (usually 2 or 3) to achieve something new. Bad technique?

Choosing the right samples is definatly a weaker point. I don't know what is going to sit well in my tracks. Usually i start with my kick and build the track from there. By the time i'm half way through it's quiete often the kick that seems most out of place.

Layer away, just give them space. When I make a track I just choose any old kick to begin with. After I've made a bass line and there is more action in the low end, if the kick and bass line are clashing I will solo the bass line and preview some kicks while it is playing in the background to see which one fits. Seems to work for me You can do this the other way round too (build your bass around the kick)

[JamesMac]

TankF - Solid bit of advice. I think your work flow will work well for me actually.

Re: Giving them space. This is another thing i have difficulty with. I take it by this you mean to have each layer of the kick doing a well defined job by itself? EG, if i had 3 kicks layered they could be seperated such that 1 kick is taking care of freq's below say 140 hz, another might be 140-500 and another might be 500+ ? How concerned should i be about phasing/clashing at the crossover points?

Maybe i should stick with layering just 2 samples til i have mastered that then move forward from there? 'finding space' is something i need to practice more i daresay.


btw spectrum, just out of curiosity what style do are you making atm?

[Spectrum]

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btw spectrum, just out of curiosity what style do are you making atm?

atm = sadly nothing. When I've got my ass into gear, and not being distracted by work, photography, and raising a near-16-month-old whose sleep patterns are just about doing my head in (imagine 2:30am, Friday morning, she's absolutely screaming the house down, won't settle so I take her for a drive, she falls asleep instantly, I park the car, recline the seat and crash out 'til 5:30am, sun's now rising, take her inside, get ready for work for another day) then think pre-2003 prog, I guess.

Though bring on the LycheeMartiniRemixMkII and I'll drop everything!

[TankF]

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TankF - Solid bit of advice. I think your work flow will work well for me actually.

Re: Giving them space. This is another thing i have difficulty with. I take it by this you mean to have each layer of the kick doing a well defined job by itself?

No, I meant the kick as a whole (the one you have created by layering kicks), make sure when it is triggered there aren't other sounds playing that are dominating the main frequencies it sits in. You can do this by eqing out the bottom end of your percs/bass etc or use sidechaining as you mentioned.

If you want the sidechaining to be a bit more subtle try sidechaning a hi pass filter on your bass/percs to the kick rather than the volume. This way the low end of your bass/percs is removed when the kick is triggered rather than the whole sound and with some tweaking it can be very effective.

I know very little about phasing etc but I wouldn't worry about it unless you can hear it. I've never needed to layer more than 2 samples myself (one takes care of the click and one takes care of the thud).

I'm no production wizard by the way, just sharing a few things that have worked for me in the past.

[JamesMac]

Awesome! very helpful ideas. Never even considered sidechaining a hpf. I'll have a play when i get home!

And spectrum: Just reading your post made me tired. Haha.

[hps909]

get 2 kicks on 2 channels  one as tank says a clickier thuddy kick hpf alot of low end out of it say sub 75hz and the other a subbier 808 esque boomier kick (you can lpf the click out of the sample) now get an eq with a hpf on the 808  run your bassline  ..

  2 ways to acheive similar results semi narrow notch eq out a hole in the bassline to make room for the kick if it's a not too subby like a moogish bass  or wind up the hpf on the 808 kick if it's a real dubby sub bass ..  either way there will be shared frequencies so you can adjust the q on both filters to try and limit cancellation.

the clicky thud kick will be the meat of the kick an the 808 will be the fat ...and the way i work is adjusting the amount of fat to balance with a bassline ..

now to get creative for a subby bassline... once i have a nice balance, for crankin techno's sake, i will buss the two together put a hpf set to about 30 hz the compress the two together  .. a quite heavy compressor threshold at about -7 -8, 5:1   with a med attack to allow that mid strike sound to pass through unaffected then long decay to get that heavily squashed low frequency effect now you can adjust the makeup to bring that shit up to the front you should get some nice pumping which works beautifully on dance floors ... i find it more natural sounding than sidechaining because it's affecting the sound as a whole not individually

a mistake people use is to slam that type of compressor over the whole mix which will give a pumping effect but will destroy any dynamics a whole track has .. that sound got really popular in the late 90's

[JamesMac]

^fucking awesome. Thanks heaps hps, love hearing those sort of methods that i'd otherwise never think of myself.

Will def being attempting to follow your recipe tomorrow.

[rhythmboy]

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LOL I read "Kiss! My greatest weakness" in my RSS and thought it was an RB thread ;D

cNUz4VbuZeM

I can always start one if you want me to! 

[dec0n]

At first glance I thought this may be a sneaker collectors thread...

[drapey]

would never have thought to sidechain a hpf over the bass. Very handy tip! I'm always just chaining the volume, and i get sick of doing it religiously. But it is very addictive.

[Johnvanraalte]

Hey, wow,, some wicked tips with the sidechain. I am also a fan of the chain. And am quite a fan of the compressor too,, for a kick drum. let the attack take about 10mS to operate and it leaves that nice ticking attack on the kick. Then FATTEN'S up the rest of the drum. Adjust the threshold and ratio to taste. BUT one of the best things that I learnt for kick drums is to listen to it and EQ the drum first. When recording live kicks, there is a major parasitic frequency in the drum that makes it sound like a stick hitting a wet cardboard box. It sits at about 440Hz, (hence the name Apollo 440, I recon) or around there depending on tuning. To hear it in MOST kickdrums, crank up a parametric EQ at 440 with a fine Q and listen for it. Guaranteed, every time you listen to a kick drum after that you will Rip it out straight away, and listen to the drum jump off the page at you. Be as fierce as you want with that and tune to suit. This sits with lots of electronic drums also. I did this to a mate's machine drum (synth) a few months ago, and damn that kick was PHAT!!!

Good luck

[JamesMac]

^is that true? Never heard of that. Will have to give it a try when i get home.

[Johnvanraalte]

Let me know how you go.

[Isturite]

I will have to try that also, but I know what you mean about the carboard box analogy.

I do my kicks in three layers: sub/boom, body, and snap.... the drums in that track you posted were very boomy, I'd say layer some sub over your drums, but not too low. I always do it too low like 50-60hz, and found that 70-90hz is more pronounced for most cases.

sometimes I'll layer a real drum sound over a sub, and that seems to hit pretty well.

As with the sidechain thing, i might have to try that myself... haven't gotten around much to sidechaining anything