16 replies to this topic

[Jester_Fu]

So, it's been bugging me for a while. Under Cubase 3 i could get Cubase to accept the MD as midi time master. I was doing this as i found the MD BPM drifts when it's syncing of Cubase as a master... even though all of my other devices seem to be pretty stable. Anyway, upgrade to 5 on Mac and no love - i can't for the life of me figure out how to get Cubase to sync to the MD. I've done a bit of reading on the web but it all seems to suggest you just can't get Cubase to do this any more. Is this true, or am i just missing something??

I know there's a couple of MD/Cubase users here so i was wondering what you guys have hooked up to get the sync working consistently... or am i jsut being anal?

[hps909]

how does the MD spit code?  through MTC or midi clock?  if it's MTC cubase should sync to it through it's sync setup page by selecting the proper sync options and ports and hitting the sync button on the transport bar .. i don't think cubase will sync to midi clock  but i'm not on my music machine to confirm.. but from memory it will spit MTC and midi clock but only sync to MTC

[ehsan]

All true^ In the Synchronization Setup menu under the Transport menu you are able to select an external MTC source.

[Jester_Fu]

Year, it's meant to sync to MTC... but i canna get it working. I've got the MD "tempo Out" and "Control Out" selections enabled... but the MD wont start Cubase and Cubase wont start the MD and read time code. I've enable External clock and even set the MD up as MTC source - maybe i fucked up the settings??

I had it all working under Studio 3... and i sued the same freakin' settings so it's got me stumped.

[hps909]

untick your MTC and midi clock outputs to the elektron, it might be getting confoozled..

get an app called midimonitor it's freeware check if the MD is infact sending MTC  and make sure your midi activity lights in cubase are lighting as well

tick your MMC aswell in that dialog and select the MD as the MMC device  MMC will allow transport messages your sending from the control out of the MD

other than that i got nothing

[Jester_Fu]

Yeah, i'd already tried MMC and unchecking the MD. If you uncheck the Midi clock destination, she wont start when you hit play in Cubase. Also tried the checking of the MMC option, but Cubase wont respond to the MD. I know the MD is getting signal as it'll sync tempo with Cubase if i set it up to do that ('cept it drifts and sways +/-2BPM at worst). I know i'm getting midi in from the MD as knob control changes register on the channel.

I just gave Midimonitor a whack (thanks for the tip!!) and it shows up the MD is sending MidiClock and also MMC (Start/Stop/Continue). Cubase wont recognise any of these. I've even booted up my old PC and fired up Cubase to exactly replicate the settings - still no dice. Man, i can't believe they'd screw me over such a basic feature.

[rhythmboy]

I'm not a regular user of either but the theory is the same no matter what device so I'll give it a go - apologies in advance if it doesn't help...

According to the MD manual it says it sends and receives MIDI clock. I see no reference to MTC which is a completely different format. If indeed it does not send MTC as the manual implies, then no MTC setting in Cubase is relevant.

I'd say this is what MIDI monitor has just verified. No MTC.

Does the MD indeed send MTC despite the manual's and MIDImonitor's  indications? If so then it must also receive it. In this case Cubase will be able to generate MTC and the MD will follow, both playback trigger and time code position. No need for MMC.

However if the MD only supports MIDI Clock/SPP then set Cubase to send MIDI Clock to the correct MIDI Clock Destination - only check the port(s) you need it on. Then the MD needs to be set up to receive the Clock in the global edit page so the 'Tempo In' = External. Then I'd experiment with checking the settings in cubase for 'MIDI Clock follows song position' etc. at the bottom of the dialog window.

By rights assuming the sync features in both are actually working properly, it's quite simple. Send MIDI clock to MD port. Set MD to receive external MIDI clock. Turn off everything else. MD will start playing when Cubase play button is engaged.

It looks like you're stuck with your old and less than perfect solution - Cubase as MIDI clock master.

I did exactly the same thing with Cubase 4 and a Boss drum machine a couple of weeks ago, they use the same formats as what you are running so in theory it should be fine.

I note in the MD manual it says that if it loses external sync for a moment, it automatically reverts to its internal clock until valid code is found again. This possibly explains why the MD would previously drift out when slaving to Cubase. Also if MIDI notes are sharing the same cable/port as MIDI clock it may cause errors since MIDI is serial - when a note is sent a sync message can't be sent at the same time. So you have to use separate leads and ports.

I have also found that mismatches in word clock/sample rate sync between devices can cause time code drift, as most systems calculate time code by dividing the sample rate by the frame rate - 48kHz at 25fps = 2000 samples per frame etc. However 44.1khz causes problems with this, and MIDI clock is a piss-poor 24 pulses per quarter note, counting with a 16th note resolution. So at non-integer tempos the maths is very messy. It's nowhere near as good as MTC for resolving to sample rate.

Eg. at 126bpm/44.1kHz/24ppq

@ 126bpm 1 quarter note = 476.19 msec
1/24 quarter note = 476.19 msec/24 = 19.84 msec

@44.1kHz, 1 sample = 0.0226757 msec

So no. of samples in 1/24 quarter note @ 44.1kHz = 19.84/0.0226757 = 874.94543 samples

So our systems are trying to calculate exactly 874.94543 samples for each pulse of MIDI clock. Yuck. This why the film and TV people use 48kHz @ 24 and 25fps = you get a nice even number of samples per sync pulse.

Again, apologies for telling you how to suck eggs, but it may help  :

[Jester_Fu]

Yeah, i'm pretty familiar with the inner working of the old base and midi... just not the MD. It worked under Studio 3, but as i said - doing some reading Steinberg has decided to drop support for non-MTC midi clock messages. The MD IS meant to send MMC, but for the life of me i can't get it working. Not what i want anyway - i just want to use the MD as the master clock. It doesn't seem to send MTC, though... which is a bit of a shit. Sends midi clock, sends MMC... but doesn't send MTC. Bastards.

So, to explain furtner, i send Midi clock to all output on the Motu Midi Express 128 + also the the MD's on little USB interface thingy. This works fine... and my TC Fireworx shows pretty stable clock as both milliseconds and BPM. However, the MD is just a little bitch. The only difference is the Fireworx is plugged into the 128, but the MD has it's on interface - so i might try plugging the MD into the 128. All other synths play happy families... it's just the MD that wants to be difficult.

Now, the reason i'm trying to use the MD as the master is because it's BPM jumps around when using Cubase as the master - despite the Fireworx showing at most 2ms variation in midi clock frequency. The MD jumps around by +/-2BPM at peaks but seems, under Cubase 5, to be sitting around 0.5BPM +/-. Now, i might be able to get away with that - i haven't actually tryed to finish and sync a whole track with the new setup. I'm just being anal, perhaps, as when syncing an entire track with the PC and Cubase 3, the MD was useless and would keep dropping in and out of time. I mean, swing is good... but this was uncontrollable so that when i finally got a subtle effect working with some oscillator syncage, the MD would throw it all out the window.

I'm inspired to try the MD into the 128 now... that might solve the issue - it might just be the USB/Midi latency of it's own interface. I can also still get the MD to use it's internal clock - which has been working OK for the short bursts i've tried it - with Cubase syncing everything else... i just need to remember to change tempos to match... which i wouldn't have to if the MD was master. Cubase can still start/stop the MD and even make it follow project time code so the loops track properly... just no love with the MD tempo staying stable and it shits me. I mean, under 3, the midi clock from the Pc was bloody aweful - which the Fireworx confirmed by showing huge variations in BPM and ms (up to 5BPM!!!). Syncing everything off the MD made it all rock solid - maybe 2ms variation at the most.

Ah, fuck it. My tunes suck enough that a few BPM out here and there isn't going to kill me i guess ;D

[neo]

I can't get anything to respond to MMC out of my MD either. I gave up in frustration ages ago.

[rhythmboy]

^^ Ah I see the problem... ain't MIDI a beeyatch sometimes  :bang:

It sounds like patching into the 128 could well fix it. I've found the MOTU sync to be really solid, and running the code using a parallel stream to the rest of the studio makes sense too.

A great (or terrible) example of how MIDI stability and speed varies so wildly from device to device.

Shame it has to be with the main drum machine that is meant to take care of - oh - a minor issue like TEMPO and BEATS!  :bang:

I feel your pain...

[neo]

Another pain in the arse is that the interface that comes with the MD speeds up sample data transfer for the UW. So if you run it off a separate interface to get better timing, you have to switch them every time you want to load new samples

[ehsan]

Fuck you - at least you got the TM-1. Early adopters got the shaft. So it's no free interface and retardo sample dump rate.

[Jester_Fu]

;D Whinge whinge whinge.

My problems are bigger than all of yours combined. I've got hate for Elektron for not including MTC and hate for Steinberg for dropping midi clock support. They're both bastards and i'm seriously considering writing an angry letter. And sending it. To their mothers.

[BOB-SNARE]

Standard USB MIDI drivers are only use bulk endpoints not isochronous (just in time) like audio.
MOTU rewrote their own USB drivers and seem to be a bit more steady.
The best thing is to use an old SMPTE tape sync. I think there's a vst plugin to generate smpte code.

[no-fi]

this is starting to sound like a cubase thread!

*itchy mod fingers*


:-)

[no-fi]

Quote

The best thing is to use an old SMPTE tape sync. I think there's a vst plugin to generate smpte code.

yeah there's one supplied with cubase.  I've been looking around a bit for a generic freeware vst that does smpte and can be used in any daw - haven't found one yet.

[neo]

Spose i'll take my Logic using arse elsewhere