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Dirt_Rock

Isnt the main focus the main OUTPUT

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^ ok hotshot ... is the backing track live?

Of course not! It was cobbled together by the Bomb Squad in an underground studio at an undisclosed location! Which brings me to another point: a lot of music such as this simply can NOT be recreated "live" because it was cut together using old skool technology like tape splicing and overdubbing. To say that it's not "live" even if played as part of a greater live performance would be juvenile and idiotic.

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^rb: i agree whole heartedly with everything you have to say, in particular the last three sentences ...

i think that this is a big part the reason that people like to pretend that they play live, as well as actually trying to do so

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Of course not! It was cobbled together by the Bomb Squad in an underground studio at an undisclosed location! Which brings me to another point: a lot of music such as this simply can NOT be recreated "live" because it was cut together using old skool technology like tape splicing and overdubbing. To say that it's not "live" even if played as part of a greater live performance would be juvenile and idiotic.

well then you're juvenile and idiotic because you just did that!

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I mean, why do we try so hard to define absolutes, define rights and wrongs with art? Art doesn't operate like that - if it did we would have no innovation, nothing would be new because we would be obliged to follow the rules, like we were playing sport. Rules in sport work well - they prevent unfairness and injury. But rules in art is a hopelessly lost cause.

So true

but also half the fun of art is actually debating whether it is art or not  ;)

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So true

but also half the fun of art is actually debating whether it is art or not  ;)

Absolutely, it's a great distraction from work for one thing :P

But seriously, those very debates are what push the boundaries of art. 40-50 years ago it would have been a relatively common opinion - by punters and pros alike - that electronic music is not even 'real' music. In the 21st century the notion that electronica is not music is rather quaint - of course we accept it is*

* that doesn't mean all of it is good though!

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OK exo, question for you - this "prefabricated" state you speak of, does it apply only to recorded audio, or to recorded sequencing as well?

Because if it's the latter, then you've essentially written off ALL "live" electronic music (hell, even The Bird used arpeggiators on that old synth!), which is your prerogative... congratulations, I guess?

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yeah i would like to know his definition of live aswell seems like all EDM is not playable live by his definition

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^tc+hps: not at all - you just have to have serious skills to do it

ie the ability to program patches on the fly

the ability to play by ear and to time

a multi timbral synth with planty of knobs and a sequencer that allows you to record one track, then another, then another etc... then playback/mute on different midi channels - an mpc does this

far from impossible imho...

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^ So for a electronic artist to go from Ableton Not Live to actually performing live, the rule is, they must build their arrangements one part at a time, layer and layer, while tweaking patch after patch from scratch, all in real time in front of an audience?

And therefore every song must start with a single element and build it up from there?

Farkin' 'ell!

So what are the cheating electronic artists who rock up with pre-prepared loops called?

Now they're the ones I want to check out.

And if they're not labelled as DJs, then what tag would you give them?

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And if they're not labelled as DJs, then what tag would you give them?

I say we cut the crap and call all laptopians, prefab or not, by the same unambiguous title:

Computer Operator.

The sets are simply called 'computer operated'. This would extend to any digital device that contains an operating system and records, plays, and process audio and MIDI - eg MPC units and drum machines

This way, punters can be absolutely certain about the kind of set they will hear. It will either be

- a DJ set

- a computer-operated set, or

- a live set

Live sets are reserved for those who play instruments that do not have an operating system, beyond those which simply make sounds (eg synthesizers).

If your group merges computers and live instruments, you are allowed to use the term 'live with computer operated assistance'. If you are a DJ that uses a PC and mp3's you are allowed to use the term 'computer-operated DJ set'.

I propose these new laws be passed through the senate, legislated and enforced with the full weight of the newly-formed SPSP*of which I nominate myself to be grand enforcer.

I am prepared to debate this until it goes to parliament, but once it's through then all debate ends. Sound ok?

*the Sound Punk Set Police  :)

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ie the ability to program patches on the fly

the ability to play by ear and to time

a multi timbral synth with planty of knobs and a sequencer that allows you to record one track, then another, then another etc... then playback/mute on different midi channels - an mpc does this

far from impossible imho...

Maybe your thinking about the ability to improvise live?

FWIW I think looking at someone staring at a laptop is boring. I think it is more interesting to see physical challenges (Thank you Gerry Sont!), but performing electronic music doesn't provide an easy way for the audience to understand the challenges the performer chooses. Out of pure laziness, I prefer to perform live with drum machines that I can program live and use the laptop as a MIDI clocked slave. So if it crashes, I don't care.

Watch Ceephax play live. Entertaining and he mixes live and talks about running over a bird on the way to the gig.

67vgdjxDj_k

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^^^  :) acid casio noise rave ..... apparently not live though!!!

as a punter i hate dance acts that stop for each song.. kills momentum when i'm  :cans: and  :dead:

^tc+hps: not at all - you just have to have serious skills to do it

ie the ability to program patches on the fly

the ability to play by ear and to time

a multi timbral synth with planty of knobs and a sequencer that allows you to record one track, then another, then another etc... then playback/mute on different midi channels - an mpc does this

far from impossible imho...

not impossible by any stretch of the imagination BUT!!!!! i think this would sound incredibly simple, minimal, ultra repetitive and fairly boring IMHO so you'd basically have to build each track from scratch.. elements and all .. i think it might be all good in a small room filled with anoraks and uber geeks but to 25000 people in the boiler room who want to dance and go nuts, it just wouldn't cut it ...

there is a happy medium which allows you to keep shit interesting moving and ultimately more entertaining for everyone..  ie have some of the more basic elements under control ( prefab if you will )  and freeforming the interesting bits...

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if you didn't want to stop the tracks you could have two identical setups and a scratch mixer between them - so you could build the start of your next progression while the last one is still playing then blend in dj style

sure enough - initially your tracks would not be very good - but if you practised and practised and became a zen master in the art of techno you would start to rock the house

and on the happy medium point - please see post seven :)

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Ummmmmmm what ever floats ya boat!

not at all - you just have to have serious skills to do it

ie the ability to program patches on the fly

the ability to play by ear and to time

a multi timbral synth with planty of knobs and a sequencer that allows you to record one track, then another, then another etc... then playback/mute on different midi channels - an mpc does this

far from impossible imho...

If you can show us your mad skills then show us how we all would appreciate the lesson. :)

Remember my Initial post was trying to point out that in a DANCE scenario, audio, is harder to mix as well in a live situation as in a studio and it probably shouldn't be done.

Thus it may not be impossible but may as well be.

I was talking to allot of producers on the weekend and 98% of them have prefabricated work as their live set.

For starters you need the time to enjoy the moment of releasing your tracks to the appreciating crowd If you have your nose down trying to mix your entire track on the fly your experience maybe kidnapped.

Second why mix on the fly when you can have everything mixed before hand, double handling shouldnt be done for any task including mixing.

Thirdly the construction of your tracks and performance is a completely different medium if you spent your time becoming the zen master in the art of techno when would you write your tracks? some sort of compromise has to be made.

Who knows the next big thing maybe just around the corner waiting to be released like the Jimi Hendrix of the techno world that can perform with a laptop with blistering efficiency, however until that day lets just enjoy the PARTY and listen to and enjoy the music for what it is, instead of scratching our chins and wanting more. 8)

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Imagine a massive sweep down to 20hz (or up to 20k) with a huge 'q' done live on a big system with no eq or anything - we've all done it at some stage and remembered why we don't do that...

Most amps would just give up and sit the next 2 mins out while the crowd screams as blood gushes out their ears...

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Punters like to see performers who are relaxed and intimate with their instrument/gear. No bigger turn off than a performer who stands back and looks thrown off, or pissed off with everything. Know your gear and treat it like a good mate. You gotta admit, the sound takes precedence over how obscenely busy a performer looks. When the sounds are brilliant, you're too blown away to think about logistics.

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