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Dirt_Rock

Isnt the main focus the main OUTPUT

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ignorance means lack of understanding it's not an insult.. maybe you should consult a dictionary.....

your assuming that people that play ableton just press play and ride a volume fader and that reeks of ignorance

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ignorance means lack of understanding it's not an insult.. maybe you should consult a dictionary.....

your assuming that people that play ableton just press play and ride a volume fader and that reeks of ignorance

that is a caricature ( edit: :-[) of what they do, they also queue loops and play with effects settings,

generally they don't do anything difficult or that requires a great deal of skill while on stage

which is actually the point i was making

edit: this obviously cuts pretty close to the bone with you to not realise that

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i know exactly the point your trying to make mate i've had this argument with you before.. ignorance and now gross generalizations...

generally they don't do anything difficult or that requires a great deal of skill while on stage

you say that with authority .....you don't know .. you assume and herein lies the ignorance...

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I feel that exo has invented a stereotype, complete with the particular shortcomings he feels need to be there to satisfy his specific criterea and is now doggedly arguing against it.

It's the failure to acknowledge the reality of the initial conditions which will create a circuitous argument where there are actually 2 conversations happening at once - exo arguing against the imaginary 'live ghoul' befitting of his very narrow and relatively untrue stereotype and those arguing for the real situation out there.

It also sounds like exo could use a bit of edumucation on what Ableton Live is truly capable. Remember just because that slider is on a UC-33e and not an ARP2600 doesn't make that slider any less powerful. Why do you persist on assuming it's only a volume, cutoff or delay send control?

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It also sounds like exo could use a bit of edumucation on what Ableton Live is truly capable. Remember just because that slider is on a UC-33e and not an ARP2600 doesn't make that slider any less powerful. Why do you persist on assuming it's only a volume, cutoff or delay send control?

You beat me to my point Ehsan - given the number of effects that Ableton allows you to use, why should taking "live" control of the myriad parameters of those effects be any less impressive than any other "live", hardware-based activity?

(Not that anyone who's ever seen me playing "live" would be that impressed with my FX-riding, but then I've taken the easy route. I've made my peace with that, and the fact is that my passion is the writing/production - the performance is icing on the top, and honestly, I just don't need the stress! :D )

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Perhaps 1 x Behringer Virtualizer is always more live than 20 x Voxengo Tempo Delay just 'cos?

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when you automate or prerecord your live show, i think that you can no longer say "composer/performer" like that because the processes are so different - in the composition phase you used your musical talents to create melodies and rhythms, then when it came to the performance phase you just press play or alter the volume of different prefab loops, there is a difficulty gap between these two phases that i think is at the root of the prefab live show's lack of crediblilty

Two things:

1 - you misread my original statement. I used composer/performer as alternate terms, not merged. Eg.

- the intent of the composer - "I call it music therefore it is" OR

- the intent of the performer - "I call it music therefore it is"

If the composer and performer are the same person, then both apply, but either is possible independently.

2 - difficulty gap? Who cares? Is playing live a game of skill or an execution of art? Who said art had to be complicated? Because I don't see a painter actually use a brush but instead view only their finished work, is their exhibition therefore less credible?

First, the others already alluded to the fact that even in a simple tool like Ableton you can do complex things. A lot of Ableton performers are doing more than originally meets the eye. But even if they are just riding the volume knob (in fact something dirt's original argument was trying to avoid! ;) ) then they are still technically performing.

This whole argument around difficulty/complexity/etc that a lot of people have (why just ride the volume when I can show the crowd how I can play arpeggios on the big red synth I bought!), is imo an egocentric attitude, and one that comes from having relatively little actual live performance experience. We shoudn't play gigs to impress anyone, least of all our fellow chin strokers - we should play gigs to entertain the people and add something positive to the culture of our community. The more gigs you do, the more you realise that most of the time you can achieve this without too much difficulty :D

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i know exactly the point your trying to make mate i've had this argument with you before.. ignorance and now gross generalizations...

you say that with authority .....you don't know .. you assume and herein lies the ignorance...

correction: actually that one was about the fact that prerecorded material, by defnition, cannot be considered, live

i said you were like the curator of the springfield museum ignoring jebadia's silver tongue and you went home crying!

in this thread, i'm saying that the credibility of a performace is impacted upon negatively when someone uses prefab loops - and i suggested that maybe this is because when someone does this, they're not really doing anything that special on stage, there could be more to it than that though

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i'm saying that the credibility of a performace is impacted upon negatively when someone uses prefab loops

I'm not really getting this argument

isn't a 303 is basically a prefabbed loop box

or in fact any x0x or tribe or other box, even a MPC isnt "live"

& turntablism by its very nature uses pre recorded loops

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exohex no the previous argument was that playing ableton live was not playing "live by definition"... you refused to admit that a sequencer was an instrument and that the definition of playing live was the interaction of human with an instrument in real time in front of a crowd. it very much co exists with this argument ..

and mate don't give yourself a pat on the back. i still think you have no idea and no "credibility" this argument just cements the notion and people with real credibility agree

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I'm not really getting this argument

isn't a 303 is basically a prefabbed loop box

or in fact any x0x or tribe or other box, even a MPC isnt "live"

& turntablism by its very nature uses pre recorded loops

I'm not surprised mate!  :-

If you take an extreme point of view then the answer can be either yes or no, depending on your opinion.

Taking a more open view, then all these devices out of the box are 'prefab' devices so long as you only use factory presets and perform no mixing, editing or dsp on them. Otherwise, as most people do, you start to erase the presets and create your own. From that point on it is no longer prefab. Simply because your loops have been stored and play back the same way does not make them prefab, it just makes them material and therefore useful.

Again a live band analogy...

When I played percussion in music theatre, I would be given a book of charts to learn. I'd read them, practise at home, then go to rehearsals, then dress rehearsals, then the season of shows. From the time I picked up the book to opening night, about 6-8 weeks, my mission was to learn to play that book exactly the same way every single time I opened it. Further, it was my job to play that book exactly when the conductor told me to. I'd play that book dozens of times before the public heard it.

By the end of the season you can play the show note perfect while reading the newspaper, cracking practical jokes on the wind players, and trying to put off the dancers by pulling faces from the pit. The band is a human machine. To the audience it looks utterly effortless, it sounds note-perfect, and if they come back again they can expect it to sound the same, exactly as they wish. To them that's a perfect show.

It gets this way because the book is so specific, your conductor is a fuhrer and you are so well rehearsed. It takes a lot of skill, work and time to get to that level of synchronicity. I see little to no difference between this and preparing electronic sets, just the equipment is different.

With electronica the book is the arrangement, the conductor is person/people and the software/sounds are the band.

There you go - laptopians can refer to themselves as 'conductors' of their sets rather than live performers - and become even bigger wankers :D

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^Edit: Should have read what you posted before i did, RB... but just to ensure we have the SP echoooooooo...

Hang on... 'prefab loops'?? What's the difference between a 'prefab loop' and a score? One's electronic and the other is on paper?? All performers, unless part of the pop factory, are composers and performers - they have to write what they're going to perform which means at some point they squence it. Just seems to me that the electronic generation have taken a lower level of interaction with their fellow man, kind of fueled by the interweb.

Also raises the question - how do you define live? If a live performer is someone playing an istrument but not someone using a partially pre-sequenced set, what's the difference between, say, a band that reherses 6 nights a week to go out and then perform what they've been rehersing all week note for note and someone who's pre-sequenced an Ablertronz set and throws buits in/out live and tweaks what's there? To me, that's just replacing a machine based sequencer with a human one.

Perhpas the distinguishing attribute between a live performance and 'lip syncing' is the emotional contribution the performer can make to the set when performing it. For instance, if you have your Ablertronz set pre sequenced and stand there, ala BT, waving your hands in the air and shouting "com' on!"... is that a live performance? Or is the live performance the one where the performer tweaks a varying number of parameters to add some individual connection to the audience during the performance? I'd suggest the later, in my experience.

Having said i think it's the later, i can now draw a sweeping generlisation - if a muso is playing note for note what they've rehersed for months, the only thing to distinguish the live performance from would could be a show based entirely on a backing track (i.e. pre-sequenced) is the subtle differences they apply at that moment of performance when using their instrument. That could be the force they strum or hit the key, it could be the extra 'slur' they place when changing notes... it could be the fact they hit their effects peddle a little later and trun the knobs on it as part of the performance. Which brings me around to thinking... why is that different to someone who tweaks the same number of parameters during a sequenced set? Are you going to see musicianship or are you going to hear an original performance? Are you more interested in the person playing the music or the music being played?

There's no denying that a good performer can motivate the crowd visually as much as the music being played can... but which has the more powerful impact? IMO, there's an equal weight and the truely special performance is one that executes both well. IMO, that ability isn't biased toward the tools being used but the person using them.

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i had the thought a few weeks back - "If i was alive in the '30/40s, what would be the equivalent job to what i do now?"

I'd be like Duke Ellington - writing the music for the band to play that night...

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This thread, in terms of the first post, is almost like an old punk rock versus progressive rock argument isnt it? Energy and expressionism versus virtuosity and perfection. It's really up to the individual as to what they do live, and why. There are some extreme comments made, but its never worth getting worked up over. Do your thing, and realise that your hardline opinions will change over time, one way or another ;)

PS, You're all talking about minimising rigs, and i added a hard drinking drummer to ours  ;D

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This thread, in terms of the first post, is almost like an old punk rock versus progressive rock argument isnt it? Energy and expressionism versus virtuosity and perfection. It's really up to the individual as to what they do live, and why. There are some extreme comments made, but its never worth getting worked up over. Do your thing, and realise that your hardline opinions will change over time, one way or another ;)

PS, You're all talking about minimising rigs, and i added a hard drinking drummer to ours  ;D

Amen!

Hard drinking drummer ey? Not to mention they take up too much floor space! Oh well as long as he carries his own gear :P

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(edit.. ^hps:)when you use prerecorded material - your music is not live

maybe you are present - so you're doing a live performance

and maybe you're performing to an audience - so they would be a live audience

but your music, imho, is prefabricated and therefore not live

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but if tweaks are being made wouldn't that mean that not everything is prefabricated, therefore it is not wholly prefabricated; it is live or has an element of being live?

I think if you write your tracks put them on a cd player or queue them up in media player then your points are valid. If there is some level of interaction however it then becomes live.

But at the end of the day, if the person performing is having fun and not hurting anyone (except in the case that their tunes are shit) I'm not sure where the problem lies?

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when you use prerecorded material - your music is not live

Says you!

What about a hip hop act who raps over the top of a backing track? You gonna tell me Public Enemy live is not live? IT'S LIVE!

There are tons and tons of rock bands who incorporate samples, loops, sequencers in their shows. Are you gonna say that because they use pre-recorded material that Marilyn Manson live is not live? Nine Inch Nails live is not live? Radiohead live is not live?

IT'S LIVE!

IT'S LIVE!

IT'S LIVE!

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I go back to my original contention - the only people with the right to claim whether their set is live or not, are the artists themselves. Outside observers are entitled to their opinion but they do not have the authority to decide on behalf of the artist.

Really the only way this discussion would make sense is if we defer the notion of 'live' or not back onto each artist individually. No wonder this discussion consumes so much forum space around the world. It will be a discussion we will have forever, because as soon as anyone makes a definitive claim, someone else has personal experience to the contrary. It will be this way with every single argument we can ever produce - there will always be an artist somewhere who says "I do it differently" or "I have a different point of view".

I mean, why do we try so hard to define absolutes, define rights and wrongs with art? Art doesn't operate like that - if it did we would have no innovation, nothing would be new because we would be obliged to follow the rules, like we were playing sport. Rules in sport work well - they prevent unfairness and injury. But rules in art is a hopelessly lost cause.

Lastly, one problem a lot of us have is that we consider 'live' to be somehow superior to pre-recorded musical performance. I see this a lot more in electronica/dance circles than I do in other fields. I suspect it comes down to the fact that a lot of EDM performers compose the music they perform, and perform it solo or in twos. There is a greater sense of ownership of the performance than in many other bands where only one person may be the composer. That ownership leads to arrogance - a belief that playing live is somehow more impressive and difficult, and therefore punters and peers will be more impressed with the artist as a person. What a wank.

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