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Hello, dumb question I know, But I never have done a vocal remix or got my head around the tricks
in doing one..I have only concentrated on OG tunes thus far...Could any one offer advice on, or any posts about this would be cool. Thanks for any help. 8)
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#2
Posted 14 June 2007 - 01:07 PM
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There's a million things to suggest, and plenty of people here will have advice for you, but here's a few things to get going... not exhaustive but a start:
Before worrying about the technical aspects of editing & mixing the vox into something else, consider a few things regarding the music itself - the lyrics, melody, phrasing etc.
- First, there is no compulsion to keep the original phrases and sections the same. A lot of people get caught out trying to fit entire verses and choruses into their remix, when being more selective is both easier to work with and potentially more creative. Listen out for the catchiest hooks, the most meaningful lyrics, the most compelling emotion - keep these bits and ditch the chaff. Lyrics can take on a whole new meaning when they are edited out of context, looped endlessly, etc. It can change the meaning of a song completely!
In this respect I will often mull over the vocals in my mind, singing to myself the parts against a track to hear in my head if it's going to work. Sometimes I'll layer the vocal track against an existing song, not worried about timing or fine details, just play along and hear the potential. If I can't hear it, I drop it and try something else. At this stage there is no editing or key matching, just imagination.
- Second, there is the issues of tempo and key. Both need to fit and be complimetary with both the music and the vocals. For tempo, I prefer letting the musical feel and style dictate this and time stretch the vocal to fit. However, for key I prefer to transpose the music to fit the original key of the vocal. This way the tonal colour of the singer is relatively untouched. That being said, tranposing vocals does lead to some interesting effects...
For tempo, editing the vocals into smaller sections, up to 4 bars or so, makes time stretching the parts a little easier and the results more accurate. Often I edit vocal lines into partial phrases or single words, depending on how natural I want the 'flow' of the phrasing to be.
For key, I like to play a simple keyboard sound like a piano while the vocal is solo'ed. I'll find the root note of the key by playing up and down the keyboard until one note fits nicely over the entire vocal - this is likely to be the root note and will define the key. A common clue to find key is also to listen for the last note or chord in a section - it's often the root note. Then I'll play the root chord in both major and minor over the vocal to establish if the key is one or the other.
Hint 1 - the more 'out' the piano sounds against the vocal, often the closer you are to hitting the right key - one or two semitones off sounds awful, which is actually the clue that your very close to being right!
Hint 2 - there are a lot of vocal phrases that do not begin on beat 1 of the bar. It is common enough for them to start a 1/4 or 1/8 note earlier (called anacrusis) or later. This needs to be considered when making edits and arranging the vocals. There is no real way to analyse the vocals for this other than listen to them carefully and feel where the vox sits against a downbeat. You may need to add some silence 'padding' to the vocal audio regions, or move regions with a fine grid resolution like 1/8 or 1/16 and place the vocals off the downbeat.
Hint 3 - vocals can get away with being a little slippery regards timing against the beats and the grid. Vocals that are all bang-on the grid can sound stilted and lifeless. It's ok for them so push a little ahead or behind the beat. Pushing ahead adds urgency and energy, pulling behind relaxes and swings more. However, looped words and anthemic lyrics can sound really punchy and tight when gridded hard to the beat.
Oops, gotta go my boss is calling me - hope that helps for start. Enough worky work slack off! Cheers
Before worrying about the technical aspects of editing & mixing the vox into something else, consider a few things regarding the music itself - the lyrics, melody, phrasing etc.
- First, there is no compulsion to keep the original phrases and sections the same. A lot of people get caught out trying to fit entire verses and choruses into their remix, when being more selective is both easier to work with and potentially more creative. Listen out for the catchiest hooks, the most meaningful lyrics, the most compelling emotion - keep these bits and ditch the chaff. Lyrics can take on a whole new meaning when they are edited out of context, looped endlessly, etc. It can change the meaning of a song completely!
In this respect I will often mull over the vocals in my mind, singing to myself the parts against a track to hear in my head if it's going to work. Sometimes I'll layer the vocal track against an existing song, not worried about timing or fine details, just play along and hear the potential. If I can't hear it, I drop it and try something else. At this stage there is no editing or key matching, just imagination.
- Second, there is the issues of tempo and key. Both need to fit and be complimetary with both the music and the vocals. For tempo, I prefer letting the musical feel and style dictate this and time stretch the vocal to fit. However, for key I prefer to transpose the music to fit the original key of the vocal. This way the tonal colour of the singer is relatively untouched. That being said, tranposing vocals does lead to some interesting effects...
For tempo, editing the vocals into smaller sections, up to 4 bars or so, makes time stretching the parts a little easier and the results more accurate. Often I edit vocal lines into partial phrases or single words, depending on how natural I want the 'flow' of the phrasing to be.
For key, I like to play a simple keyboard sound like a piano while the vocal is solo'ed. I'll find the root note of the key by playing up and down the keyboard until one note fits nicely over the entire vocal - this is likely to be the root note and will define the key. A common clue to find key is also to listen for the last note or chord in a section - it's often the root note. Then I'll play the root chord in both major and minor over the vocal to establish if the key is one or the other.
Hint 1 - the more 'out' the piano sounds against the vocal, often the closer you are to hitting the right key - one or two semitones off sounds awful, which is actually the clue that your very close to being right!
Hint 2 - there are a lot of vocal phrases that do not begin on beat 1 of the bar. It is common enough for them to start a 1/4 or 1/8 note earlier (called anacrusis) or later. This needs to be considered when making edits and arranging the vocals. There is no real way to analyse the vocals for this other than listen to them carefully and feel where the vox sits against a downbeat. You may need to add some silence 'padding' to the vocal audio regions, or move regions with a fine grid resolution like 1/8 or 1/16 and place the vocals off the downbeat.
Hint 3 - vocals can get away with being a little slippery regards timing against the beats and the grid. Vocals that are all bang-on the grid can sound stilted and lifeless. It's ok for them so push a little ahead or behind the beat. Pushing ahead adds urgency and energy, pulling behind relaxes and swings more. However, looped words and anthemic lyrics can sound really punchy and tight when gridded hard to the beat.
Oops, gotta go my boss is calling me - hope that helps for start. Enough worky work slack off! Cheers
#3
Posted 14 June 2007 - 01:52 PM
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Right on.. Thanks Rhythmboy.. That sheds a lot light on that.. I have messed about with vocal bits and
most of the time it's a train wreck. I have always wanted to do a hip hop acapella, and no matter what I
do I can't seem get the snipits to fit. I will try your suggestions, thanks a lot
Don't ever let em catch ya slackn ;D
most of the time it's a train wreck. I have always wanted to do a hip hop acapella, and no matter what I
do I can't seem get the snipits to fit. I will try your suggestions, thanks a lot
Don't ever let em catch ya slackn ;D
#4
Posted 16 June 2007 - 02:09 AM
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"Organised Noise"
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not exhaustive but a start
Who are you kidding... there's much mileage on those tips, for sure! So many great ideas. Nice one!
#5
Posted 17 June 2007 - 12:12 AM
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Thanks guys my pleasure. One more tip then a shameless plug...
Better/faster to explain mostly with a pic (attached), regards good editing of word beginnings. The pic shows two words - THEN and KIDS. One has a soft attack with a big vowel component, the other has a quiet but hard attack and a big vowel peak further in. I've aligned the letters with the wave to show you how much a wave changes shape in the course of a word, and that the strongest peaks are not necessarily at the start of the word. I've added a virtual grid line/edit point and shown how it's often bad to assume the highest peak in a word or phrase is the start of it. Bottom line - you might cut off the start of a word. However, with soft-attack words the highest peak might be a good place to align to a grid. It makes the word sound tighter against drums and pushes it ahead a bit. With hard-attack words though, it's better to line up the consonant with the drums so it doesn't sound out of time or clicky/flammy. You don't want k, t, p, etc flamming against your hi hats (if you're that fussy!)
Now the plug - my proudest achievement in vocal remixing is my remix of 'Another Look at Harmony' by Philip Glass. Click on my rhythmboy link to myspace and play the Philip Glass remix track. I took a 50 minute minimal choir piece, 8 people going 'aahhh' with arpeggio organ backing and no click/metronome. It was roughly 88-92bpm, changing over time. So I edited out entire phrases I liked, set a tempo of 152bpm for drum & bass and just threw the drums and vocals up against each other with no time stretch. It kind of approximated to 6 bars of drums fitting 4 bars of vocal, so I forced the vox phrases to go in reverse meter, from 6/4 originally at 92 to 4/4 at 152. Then I set up a bunch of percussion loops, duplicated the vocals across three tracks, inserted expanders on two of the vocal tracks and remoted triggered the expanders via side-chain from the percussion. Two different loops, one for each track. The third vocal was left open. Then 16th delays added to vocals to soften the gate effect further. The remote triggereing forced the vocals to sound perfectly in time with the drums. So I executed translating a 50 minute piece into 7, from an indeterminate tempo and changing time signatures, to a drum & bass track with no time stretch. It fundamentally altered the original melodies, and in the second half I layered different sections from the original together to make counterpoint.
It was released on 'Glass Cuts' - the first and only official Philip Glass remix compilation, in late 2005. Yeah!
Better/faster to explain mostly with a pic (attached), regards good editing of word beginnings. The pic shows two words - THEN and KIDS. One has a soft attack with a big vowel component, the other has a quiet but hard attack and a big vowel peak further in. I've aligned the letters with the wave to show you how much a wave changes shape in the course of a word, and that the strongest peaks are not necessarily at the start of the word. I've added a virtual grid line/edit point and shown how it's often bad to assume the highest peak in a word or phrase is the start of it. Bottom line - you might cut off the start of a word. However, with soft-attack words the highest peak might be a good place to align to a grid. It makes the word sound tighter against drums and pushes it ahead a bit. With hard-attack words though, it's better to line up the consonant with the drums so it doesn't sound out of time or clicky/flammy. You don't want k, t, p, etc flamming against your hi hats (if you're that fussy!)
Now the plug - my proudest achievement in vocal remixing is my remix of 'Another Look at Harmony' by Philip Glass. Click on my rhythmboy link to myspace and play the Philip Glass remix track. I took a 50 minute minimal choir piece, 8 people going 'aahhh' with arpeggio organ backing and no click/metronome. It was roughly 88-92bpm, changing over time. So I edited out entire phrases I liked, set a tempo of 152bpm for drum & bass and just threw the drums and vocals up against each other with no time stretch. It kind of approximated to 6 bars of drums fitting 4 bars of vocal, so I forced the vox phrases to go in reverse meter, from 6/4 originally at 92 to 4/4 at 152. Then I set up a bunch of percussion loops, duplicated the vocals across three tracks, inserted expanders on two of the vocal tracks and remoted triggered the expanders via side-chain from the percussion. Two different loops, one for each track. The third vocal was left open. Then 16th delays added to vocals to soften the gate effect further. The remote triggereing forced the vocals to sound perfectly in time with the drums. So I executed translating a 50 minute piece into 7, from an indeterminate tempo and changing time signatures, to a drum & bass track with no time stretch. It fundamentally altered the original melodies, and in the second half I layered different sections from the original together to make counterpoint.
It was released on 'Glass Cuts' - the first and only official Philip Glass remix compilation, in late 2005. Yeah!
#6
Posted 17 June 2007 - 08:57 AM
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Very nice remix, the gating on the vocal really helps it move.. :cans: I had no idea you are so accomplished as a musician. I am going to try a remix soon and see if I can grasp it better with your suggetions.. Many thanks
#7
Posted 17 June 2007 - 05:28 PM
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Very nice remix, the gating on the vocal really helps it move.. :cans: I had no idea you are so accomplished as a musician. I am going to try a remix soon and see if I can grasp it better with your suggetions.. Many thanks
And thank you for the kind words! Cheers!
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