83 replies to this topic

[hps909]

^^^^  i'd be mixing up hooch in my bathtub
[me=hps909]shakes fist at prohibition[/me]

[Captain Terrific]

[dri]

This thread, in terms of the first post, is almost like an old punk rock versus progressive rock argument isnt it? Energy and expressionism versus virtuosity and perfection. It's really up to the individual as to what they do live, and why. There are some extreme comments made, but its never worth getting worked up over. Do your thing, and realise that your hardline opinions will change over time, one way or another

PS, You're all talking about minimising rigs, and i added a hard drinking drummer to ours  ;D

[rhythmboy]

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This thread, in terms of the first post, is almost like an old punk rock versus progressive rock argument isnt it? Energy and expressionism versus virtuosity and perfection. It's really up to the individual as to what they do live, and why. There are some extreme comments made, but its never worth getting worked up over. Do your thing, and realise that your hardline opinions will change over time, one way or another

PS, You're all talking about minimising rigs, and i added a hard drinking drummer to ours  ;D

Amen!

Hard drinking drummer ey? Not to mention they take up too much floor space! Oh well as long as he carries his own gear

[exohex]

(edit.. ^hps:)when you use prerecorded material - your music is not live

maybe you are present - so you're doing a live performance

and maybe you're performing to an audience - so they would be a live audience

but your music, imho, is prefabricated and therefore not live

[Vagrant Producer]

but if tweaks are being made wouldn't that mean that not everything is prefabricated, therefore it is not wholly prefabricated; it is live or has an element of being live?

I think if you write your tracks put them on a cd player or queue them up in media player then your points are valid. If there is some level of interaction however it then becomes live.

But at the end of the day, if the person performing is having fun and not hurting anyone (except in the case that their tunes are shit) I'm not sure where the problem lies?

[neo]

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when you use prerecorded material - your music is not live

Says you!

What about a hip hop act who raps over the top of a backing track? You gonna tell me Public Enemy live is not live? IT'S LIVE!

There are tons and tons of rock bands who incorporate samples, loops, sequencers in their shows. Are you gonna say that because they use pre-recorded material that Marilyn Manson live is not live? Nine Inch Nails live is not live? Radiohead live is not live?

IT'S LIVE!
IT'S LIVE!
IT'S LIVE!

[exohex]

^ ok hotshot ... is the backing track live?

[lightfoot]

Are you listening to the backing track live? then I say yes..... it is live!

[rhythmboy]

I go back to my original contention - the only people with the right to claim whether their set is live or not, are the artists themselves. Outside observers are entitled to their opinion but they do not have the authority to decide on behalf of the artist.

Really the only way this discussion would make sense is if we defer the notion of 'live' or not back onto each artist individually. No wonder this discussion consumes so much forum space around the world. It will be a discussion we will have forever, because as soon as anyone makes a definitive claim, someone else has personal experience to the contrary. It will be this way with every single argument we can ever produce - there will always be an artist somewhere who says "I do it differently" or "I have a different point of view".

I mean, why do we try so hard to define absolutes, define rights and wrongs with art? Art doesn't operate like that - if it did we would have no innovation, nothing would be new because we would be obliged to follow the rules, like we were playing sport. Rules in sport work well - they prevent unfairness and injury. But rules in art is a hopelessly lost cause.

Lastly, one problem a lot of us have is that we consider 'live' to be somehow superior to pre-recorded musical performance. I see this a lot more in electronica/dance circles than I do in other fields. I suspect it comes down to the fact that a lot of EDM performers compose the music they perform, and perform it solo or in twos. There is a greater sense of ownership of the performance than in many other bands where only one person may be the composer. That ownership leads to arrogance - a belief that playing live is somehow more impressive and difficult, and therefore punters and peers will be more impressed with the artist as a person. What a wank.

[neo]

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^ ok hotshot ... is the backing track live?

Of course not! It was cobbled together by the Bomb Squad in an underground studio at an undisclosed location! Which brings me to another point: a lot of music such as this simply can NOT be recreated "live" because it was cut together using old skool technology like tape splicing and overdubbing. To say that it's not "live" even if played as part of a greater live performance would be juvenile and idiotic.

[exohex]

^rb: i agree whole heartedly with everything you have to say, in particular the last three sentences ...

i think that this is a big part the reason that people like to pretend that they play live, as well as actually trying to do so

[exohex]

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Of course not! It was cobbled together by the Bomb Squad in an underground studio at an undisclosed location! Which brings me to another point: a lot of music such as this simply can NOT be recreated "live" because it was cut together using old skool technology like tape splicing and overdubbing. To say that it's not "live" even if played as part of a greater live performance would be juvenile and idiotic.

well then you're juvenile and idiotic because you just did that!

[neo]

Oh, now I get it. You're a fucking child. Have nice day

[exohex]

don't blame me dude - you're the one who insulted yourself!

[Vagrant Producer]

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I mean, why do we try so hard to define absolutes, define rights and wrongs with art? Art doesn't operate like that - if it did we would have no innovation, nothing would be new because we would be obliged to follow the rules, like we were playing sport. Rules in sport work well - they prevent unfairness and injury. But rules in art is a hopelessly lost cause.

So true

but also half the fun of art is actually debating whether it is art or not  

[Captain Terrific]

[rhythmboy]

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So true

but also half the fun of art is actually debating whether it is art or not  

Absolutely, it's a great distraction from work for one thing

But seriously, those very debates are what push the boundaries of art. 40-50 years ago it would have been a relatively common opinion - by punters and pros alike - that electronic music is not even 'real' music. In the 21st century the notion that electronica is not music is rather quaint - of course we accept it is*

* that doesn't mean all of it is good though!

[tribalchris]

OK exo, question for you - this "prefabricated" state you speak of, does it apply only to recorded audio, or to recorded sequencing as well?

Because if it's the latter, then you've essentially written off ALL "live" electronic music (hell, even The Bird used arpeggiators on that old synth!), which is your prerogative... congratulations, I guess?

[hps909]

yeah i would like to know his definition of live aswell seems like all EDM is not playable live by his definition