83 replies to this topic

[Dirt_Rock]

I am after some opinions other than mine.

my opinion is:

When playing a Live set shouldn't the main focus be the final out put of the audio stream and performance aspects such as tweaking a knob and moving a fader is an extra aesthetic included on the overall performance. When the overall output is compromised by the "Live aspects" shouldn't "LIVE" bits be minimized to maintain a steady audio stream. I am all for "LIVE" performance but when it effects the way a track sounds ie poorly mixed I am not into it.
This is my speculative opinion but playing un-mastered tracks as your final out put when playing live does not cut the mustard. Such as playing 8 separate audio stems of a track and hoping they will sound as good as a fully mastered track.
It doesn't matter How good the system you are playing through if the mix is flat so will be the output and the integrity of the performance. I also feel that computer glitches and dropouts from the audio stream due to CPU overload is not acceptable. So shouldn't you be doing everything in your power to minimize this risk?

How do you guys play live sets?

1 a master wave and drop live bits over the top or 2 mix parts on the fly as well as live aspects ie Tom Cosm's method on a video his web site or 3 any other way you may get it done.


Frustrated Punter

[Anders]

When I play "live" it is always a bed track with live synths, vocals etc over the top (and a white noise generator ). Thats the easy way to do it but it does look abit boring I guess.

Isn't the real "output" of a live gig the total experience? i.e. the punters are not standing there with their eyes closed so visual and atmosphere effects come into the "mix" too.

[ehsan]

I wholly agree with this newbie. You're right on the money - the propensity toward live for the self satisfying sake of it is a scourge of many new live acts. Why do you need to have total mix control of each constituent drum element at the expense of a proper and precise drum mix? Why is mastering so often neglected as a necessary element of the 'sound' for the sake of being able to mute that shaker track?

I only say these things as for many many years I was part of one of 'those' live acts. ;D Gives you great nerd cred tho.

[rhythmboy]

Maybe draw an analogy with good old band mixing...

Unless it's a very small gig and/or someone in the band is a guru at it, then amplified bands use FOH sound people to look after mixing. Why? Because there's already enough to think about on stage, let alone mixing everything too. Also being on stage/in booth, even with great foldback, does not give you a true picture of the mix out front in the audience. In the absence of dedicated sound person, the band has to keep it simple or it sounds shite.

Translate that notion over to an electronic set - yeah for sure go multitrack, but think of each track as its own band member. Do you have a FOH person to mix it for you from out front? Some guarantee that the audience is getting a good mix while you're 5-10 metres away standing in the opposite direction? No?

Then keep it simple! I agree - mix it first, then play it out.

Another angle on it, a bit weird but think of the ergonomics...

An electronic duo uses four hands - 2 each - to use for all executions on stage. My band uses 9 hands*, 1 voice, and 4 feet** for all executions on stage, and then another 2 or 4 for mixing, depending on the size of the gig. Why would 4 hands try to do the job of 10? Unless your'e the Eddie Van Halen of laptopia, it just leads to train wrecks.

*Nic uses one to hold the mic
** Aside from BK's drums, there's 2 guys with guitar pedals.

[hps909]

i gotta agree with anders the output should be the entire experience .. not just for the chin strokers but for everyone.. sound, atmosphere, energy, fun

[Vagrant Producer]

playing live is all about the experience for the punters (and in turn for the player). I truely believe that the studio is a completely seperate artform from playing live. But both artforms are equally as important as each other.

[Dirt_Rock]

Totally agree... NOW IVE GOTTA CONVINCE MY MUSICAL PARTNER.
We have about 24 hours before playing in fount of a large crowd : and playing from a Big system... Wish Us LUCK

[exohex]

the only people who think what you're talking about is playing live, dj'ing prefab loops, are the people who are doing it themselves

as far as I can see, pretty much everyone who plays live does dj prefab loops though, from the superstar to the not so well known, because otherwise the whole thing could easily fall flat on its face, basically i'd say its due to fear of failure

try to find a happy medium between actually playing live and pressing play on a totally perfab set that you feel safe with

[ehsan]

That's particularly narrow minded of you Conor - you're assuming that people have devised a method to play live and then persisted with that method forever. You've neglected that there are at least 3 people in this thread alone who I can see who have over the last decade and at many many gigs had their setup evolve from purely hardware and multichannel synth/sample based through to involving a computer and using the breadth of technology that it entails.

Not everyone's only been doing this since Ableton was invented you know

[exohex]

ehsan, sure, calling me narrow minded is one way of looking at my point of view ... but calling someone else narrow minded is narrow minded in itself

why did you move from a hardware/sample based setup?

[rhythmboy]

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playing live is all about the experience for the punters (and in turn for the player). I truely believe that the studio is a completely seperate artform from playing live. But both artforms are equally as important as each other.

However the art of studio production has inevitably found its way into the live electronica realm. It's quite different to bands. Bands don't necessarily write, arrange and perfect their tunes in the recording studio - more like the rehearsal studio. They use the recording studio to create a final document of something already created elsewhere. Yes the studio can offer new opportunities for arrangement and mix tricks that live gigs can't replicate, nor should they try necessarily. The Lychees have just finished two tunes - one is 94 audio tracks and another 118 (due to insane numbers of vocal and keys overdubs). They will never ever sound the same on stage unless we start using samplers and click tracks (which we are seriously considering). No matter, live is live, studio is studio, we love them both for what they are.

Most electronic sets are created in the studio though. The same gear is often unplugged and carried out. To me it seems logical and natural that the translation from studio to venue would carry over a whole range of studio-oriented techniques to the stage, especially when it uses the same gear.

Also punters might be dumb sometimes, but they are continuously fed a barrage of high-fidelity music edited to clinical perfection and mastered to to the hilt. Every day on FM radio, TV, DVD's, video games, etc. punters hear - and then grow to expect - big, loud, clean, perfect mixes. They may not understand the 'how' of it, but they know what sounds 'good' My vote is to give the punters what they want, make them happy and rock the night rather than show off my real-time mixmasta skillz to a crowd that have NFI what I'm doing until it sounds shit and they complain 'I can't hear the melody' or 'it sounds muffled' or 'the bass made me want to throw up'.

Final word for yer mate DR - yeah by all means mix live - but you'd better make sure that you're really really good at live mixing, and really good at mixing FOH from stage centre, or you will fall on your face big time

[ehsan]

I'm going to leave that first sentence cos it makes my head spin!

We moved from strictly hardware for a couple of reasons. Primarily, the expectations of a crowd have changed significantly over the last decade of live 'techno' from one bar loopism being completely acceptable to the hyped production that is considered a baseline these days. A strict hardware setup not only caps the available tools in your arsenal both sonically and features-wise it intentionally excludes the major tool in moving electronic music forward and while fun, credible and self-satisfying is akin to building a house without nails. Sure you can do it - clever joinery is sometimes better than nails - but to get the same result requires a greater level of skill, devotion and time investment.

Without the power of advanced computer sequencing/mixing/automation/mastering/effecting processing ability a hardware setup to achieve the precise same ends is largely impossible if not unobtainable - which brings me to my next point. Aside from the sheer cost factor involved in having enough equipment to pull it off, there's the simple back-break factor. Me and Ev lugged a fuckload way too much gear to a fuckload not that well paid gigs for a good few years. Fun? Fuck yeah. Loud, distorty, smash smash smash rave? Fuck YEAH! Did we bust our asses on trams and trains for the love of the techno? FUCK YEAH. Ball-busting and frankly a bit more lo-fi than we'd consider acceptable in 2009? Fuck yeah! Screw carrying 3 synths, sampler, effects rack, bigass mixer and a spaghetti ball of leads up hill and down dale for a $200 one hour set. Fuck yeah.

And most importantly - I can use the full force of every production and studio trick I know, refined on my nice expensive speakers to the finest Tee I can squeeze out in my nice controlled environment using my nice vintage synths that will never see another gig and pay for my kid's education for that exact reason and take those sounds just as I intend it in all its 24bit glory to the club and have it sound shit hot and have a chance at getting paid more one day instead of being the pack-mule techno hardware demigod I always wanted to be.

Perhaps I'm getting old ;D I still don't like house music so I guess there's still some time left for that.

[rhythmboy]

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Without the power of advanced computer sequencing/mixing/automation/mastering/effecting processing ability a hardware setup is largely impossible if not unobtainable - which brings me to my next point. Aside from the sheer cost factor involved in having enough equipment to pull it off, there's the sheer back-break factor. Me and Ev lugged a fuckload way too much gear to a fuckload not that well paid gigs for a good few years. Fun? Fuck yeah. Loud, distorty, smash smash smash rave? Fuck YEAH! Did we bust our asses on trams and trains for the love of the techno? FUCK YEAH. Ball-busting and frankly a bit more lo-fi than we'd consider acceptable in 2009? Fuck yeah! Screw carrying 3 synths, sampler, effects rack, bigass mixer and a spaghetti ball of leads up hill and down dale for a $200 one hour set. Fuck yeah.

Amen. After 25 years of drumming I learnt this one too. When I was 18 I had no problem taking out the double-kick rig, every piece of kit in my rig went in the car. 45 minute setup yada yada...

Now I configure my kits based on achieving a maximum three trips to/from the car and a 10 minute setup. Bugger looking impressive - I just want an easy night of it now!

And regarding the earlier point, we forget sometimes that once upon a time, not so long ago, the laptop was but a twinkle in Bill Gates's eye. You played hardware or you played nothing. Now we have new tools that sound better, run faster, more efficient, easier to carry, more reliable... It seems the major 'crimes' PC's and software are guilty of, are (1) not looking as big and impressive on stage as a rack of synths, and (2) being easier to operate. Gawd with that logic we should sell our cars and learn to ride horses again. You want 200 horsepower? Cool - get 200 horses...

[exohex]

i think i understand - you've paid your dues to the gods of techno, you've proved to yourself and others that you can stage a real live hardware hoedown, i appreciate that,

and from a lugging expensive gear around point of view, I completely agree with dj'ing prefab loops as a credible alternative to actually playing the synths, unless you can hire roadies and insure everything you're taking a huge risk

but for me anyway - the sound quality thing comes down to practice, if you (not specifially you, i'm not trying to get personal) could recreate the skills you've honed in the studio as far as sound engineering as well as musicianship on stage, then you would be able to use every trick in your arsenal, you'd just be operating without a safety net

rb has already suggested that the stage is no place for an engineer - maybe the front of house desk is a much better place for an electronic musician to set up - you would then be able to hear what you were playing and make adjustments accordingly - but thats neither here nor there

i reckon that people should try and play as live as they can - bring out the synths and drum machines if you can and see what happens, if you can still achieve clinical results, then you are doing something very difficult and will therefore be worthy of far more notoriety than someone doing the same thing with prefab loops

[Vagrant Producer]

I think it comes down to the individual.. what they want from the gig and how they want the punters to react.

[ehsan]

Sure exo, but again with the absolutes. I would prioritise as such - 1. Quality of music and fidelity 2. Exploration of methods to deliver that level of quality

You're ignoring the world of combining the strengths of computer reproduction with the fun and flexibility of hardware.

I know that I typically these days hang a 303 and maybe a synth off the side of the box to constitute a live set. Take Deepchild who runs x0xbox and Machinedrum alongside his Ableton setup. Hybrid is the key. Strengths and strengths instead of weaknesses and patchjobs.

[exohex]

i agree that taking advantage of whatever technology you can is certainly the sensible thing to do,
and anything that lets you deliver a better performance with less opportunity for mistakes would seem like a step in the right direction

the thing about it is that prerecording or automating come at a cost: mojo

i'm guessing this is why yourself and deepchild as well, bring some kit  - to keep some mojo up there with you

[rhythmboy]

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I think it comes down to the individual.. what they want from the gig and how they want the punters to react.

I was ranting about this in composition/performance class the other day. What is it that makes a collection of sounds become a piece of music? What is it that makes real-time sound generating events become a performance?

1) the intent of the composer/performer - "I call it music therefore it is"
2) the intent of the audience - "I'm willing to accept this as music therefore it is"

All other things are superfluous, just variations of the same theme: generate sound, distribute/propagate sound, hear sound.

I'd also argue that, while we may want punters to react a certain way to our performances, it is pointless to expect or dictate to them how they should react. This just leads to disappointment in the performer. Performers should just do what they do best, be awesome at it and utterly believe in your art. Let the punters decide if they like it - if they do, that's a bonus. But you can't force it

[hps909]

i remember a time when you would never consider taking a computer on stage with you it was too risky if the thing crashed mid set or you BSOD and had to reboot ... i remember carting 3 synths a sampler a drum machine/sequencer fx racks a 16 channel desk 12 km's of cabling 8 powerboards needing 2 tables to set up.. yeah it was fun.. sound quality was terrible though as mentioned before your trying to mix FOH on stage through plastic 15" mid range speakers turned up too loud to get over the FOH system...

  i'm sure we are telling you these things not because we are "not proficient enough" or "laptop jockeys" but because i myself have been playing live for 15+ years i'm sure eshan and ev have been about the same time as has rob .. it's experience to know what shit sounds like in a club environment and how to translate and perform your music the best way you can..  ableton and a microkorg for me does exactly the same thing as my MPC did 7 years ago albiet with shit load more sample ram.   

[hps909]

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Performers should just do what they do best, be awesome at it and utterly believe in your art. Let the punters decide if they like it - if they do, that's a bonus. But you can't force it

this is the key to a great live act